Laura Thomson (00:03):
I’m going to sneeze.
Lana Milner (00:04):
I know I’m waiting for you.
Laura Thomson (00:06):
Okay, Go ahead. Go for it.
Lana Milner (00:07):
Sneeze.
Laura Thomson (00:08):
No, no. No I can’t sneeze on the spot. <laugh>.
Lana Milner (00:12):
Hello people and welcome to Woman Up with the Sister Brand. Okay, today we are talking about micro
versus macro influencing. So we all know that micro influencing is a big buzzword right now, but there’s
a reason for that and that is because it’s trending for 2023.
Laura Thomson (00:32):
Well, and so many people in business, they need that push. It is a trend because it’s, our businesses
nowadays are so heavily put in social media that we need those influencers. And this is the way that
social media works now. So trying to get the right influencers and figure out how to do this, it’s a whole,
it’s a mess. It’s a gong show. It really
Lana Milner (00:53):
Is. It’s a beast.
Laura Thomson (00:54):
And yeah, it
Lana Milner (00:55):
Really is a beast. So today we’re going to talk about if you are a small business, how do you know which
route to go? Do you look at the micro influencer or the macro influencer? We’re going to talk about the
differences between them. We’re also going to talk about if you are looking at their following count, is
that a good indicator? Oh,
Laura Thomson (01:14):
Cause that is the biggest thing. People, people love that number. It’s the biggest thing
Lana Milner (01:19):

This transcript was exported on Feb 22, 2023 – view latest version here.

WU EP11 V1 FINAL (Completed 02/22/23)
Transcript by Rev.com

Page 2 of
And how do you choose an influencer if you’re not going by their following count? So those are the
things we are going to dive into today, on today, today, today. Did you like that <laugh> today on
Woman Up? All right, we are talking all things influencer today, and there’s a lot of different types of
influencers. So I had to actually Google it because I wanted to know exactly what the parameters are.
But you might have heard of them like Laura, a micro influencer. How many followers do you think you
have to have to be called a micro influencer?
Laura Thomson (01:56):
Well, there’s so many different metrics out there, but I mean realistically it’s between a thousand and a
hundred thousand followers. And I mean a hundred thousand people is a lot of followers.
Lana Milner (02:05):
Okay, well it absolutely, so I looked up a scale, if you will, and the scale is that a micro is considered
500,000 to 10,000 and a mid-tier.
Laura Thomson (02:17):
500 to 10,000, you mean? No,
Lana Milner (02:18):
5,000 to 10,000.
Laura Thomson (02:21):
You said 500,000.
Lana Milner (02:22):
Oh, did I? Let’s
Laura Thomson (02:23):
Get our numbers right.
Lana Milner (02:25):
<laugh>. See, is that hard? So 5,000 to 10,000 followers would classify you as a micro influencer. Mid-
tier would be a hundred thousand to 500,000. Macro being the much larger influencer, the 500 K to 1
million. And then you’re like mega status if you’re 1 million plus
Laura Thomson (02:45):
Justin Biebers of the world.
Lana Milner (02:47):
And it’s all according to your followers typically on Instagram. Really? That’s what you’re looking at.
Laura Thomson (02:52):
I know, and this gets me heated up so much, Lana, because this follower number has so much weight
nowadays, and I can’t stand it because it’s not realistic. Half of the people out there with these massive

This transcript was exported on Feb 22, 2023 – view latest version here.

WU EP11 V1 FINAL (Completed 02/22/23)
Transcript by Rev.com

Page 3 of
accounts, those aren’t real followers following them. So many people have, right? Or they start, yeah,
they’ve paid for them or you know what? Not actually engaged people following them. And yet all of a
sudden,
Lana Milner (03:18):
Or they had their accounts so long ago that they’ve built it since the dawn of Instagram.
Laura Thomson (03:25):
And that’s not to say that there aren’t accounts with completely loyal, true number following. I know
that there are many, many, many of those, but so many of them are not. They’re just, they’re bots and
Lana Milner (03:36):
Yeah, we call it spot bot, spot a bottom, a mile away, spot a bot
Laura Thomson (03:40):
Lana and I have a sixth sense for spotting bots.
Lana Milner (03:43):
And what is our go-to like when we think that maybe an account isn’t as authentic as they probably
should be? What’s our number one thing that we look for?
Laura Thomson (03:52):
You always go to their reels right away because, and I know that reels right now in the Instagram
algorithm have really dropped on views
Lana Milner (04:00):
And, oh, don’t get me started. And
Laura Thomson (04:01):
We get that. But if you have an account with hundreds of thousands of followers, or even let’s call it 60,
80,000 followers, and they’re getting no views on their reels, that means that they do not have an
authentic engagement. And so then you can go into their followers right away and you can spot those
bots. They usually have the numbers, the underscores, if you go to their accounts, they have 17 pictures
of the same guy standing next to the same car, and usually from overseas as well.
Lana Milner (04:29):
And also they’re almost always private. And so you can see them so quickly and you’ll know right away.
But we see this all the time with businesses especially, we work primarily with women in business. And
what we see is these beautiful, amazing companies collaborating with mostly bot driven influencers.
Laura Thomson (04:49):
And what’s that going to do to your roi?
Lana Milner (04:51):

This transcript was exported on Feb 22, 2023 – view latest version here.

WU EP11 V1 FINAL (Completed 02/22/23)
Transcript by Rev.com

Page 4 of
Well, and what they must have paid. Because if you follow the, I guess the metrics for how you’re
classified as a mid-tier or a macro or a micro, that comes with dollar signs, right? Oh, the more followers
you have, the more it costs.
Laura Thomson (05:07):
It blows my mind, Lana. I mean, we’ve been down this road, we’ve talked and seen and worked with
people who are dealing with influencers and some of the costs that are associated with doing an
Instagram story is mind blowing, like 45 sec, not even 45 seconds. A 30 second, 15 second plug on their
story is going to cost you upwards of 20, $30,000 us. It’s insanity.
Lana Milner (05:37):
And that is why micro influencing is trending the way it is. Because if you are going with a mid to macro
to mega influencer, you are, you’re putting all your eggs in one basket. And when you do that, the
authenticity factor goes down quite a bit because you’ve got this huge celebrity or somebody with that
status hawking your goods. And even if they’re somewhat aligned or aligned completely, it’s not always
feeling authentic when it’s coming from those larger accounts. Cause they’re getting paid a lot of money
to do it. So enter the micro influencer,
Laura Thomson (06:14):
It’s all about the micro influencer, all of these smaller accounts. What, there’s so much authenticity and
loyalty too. You find a micro influencer and you want a brand partner with them, they are going to go
above and beyond. And some of these bigger accounts, they don’t have the time, or I hate to say it a lot
of time, they don’t have the care to really give your brand what it deserves. And the work that you are
putting in this is your baby, you’re working so hard for it, and then you get the big ones out there and
they’re just getting paid. So it’s a payday.
Lana Milner (06:45):
A payday. Exactly. Well, according to forbes.com, micro influencers boast up to 60% increased
engagement as huge, and that in turn lends to a 20% higher conversion rate than that of the typical
macro influencers. So that’s a huge difference when you’re putting your marketing dollars down, and
especially if you can spread it out to a few influencers that are more aligned with your niche, that’s
where the magic happens.
Laura Thomson (07:20):
You know what? These smaller accounts, they are so driven by their own business, why? What they
want to succeed too. And so it’s a partnership. They’re like brand partnerships with a smaller business
are going to be successful on both sides and these big accounts, they don’t need a bigger following.
They’re not looking to grow from your following. So these micro influencers, it’s you get it from both
sides and it’s way better return on investment.
Lana Milner (07:46):
So speaking of return on investment, how do you know where to spend your money? How much to
spend? If somebody’s asking you for $20,000, which they likely wouldn’t if they were a micro influencer,
but let’s say even $10,000 for a post, how do you know if you’re going to get your return on investment?
Well, there’s a lot of new tools out there, and you’ll see them moving forward into 2023 is one of those

This transcript was exported on Feb 22, 2023 – view latest version here.

WU EP11 V1 FINAL (Completed 02/22/23)
Transcript by Rev.com

Page 5 of
trending apps is the ROI calculator for influencers. We’ve even purchased it before. It does add a new
dimension to figuring out who to go with and how much money to spend. And
Laura Thomson (08:24):
I believe that there’s such value in this because as even micro influencers, whoever you are, your
content creation takes time and it takes hard work and it takes effort and trying to make it brand
collaboration that not only gives back to the company that’s hiring you but also lends to your audience
and your feed, how difficult. It’s not an easy task. And so you should be paid accordingly. And so there’s
tons of these new calculators out there where you can input your views and your reach and all of those
metrics that you can see in Instagram and it will give you a number that you should be charging for your
influencing.
Lana Milner (09:04):
People should follow us on Instagram. Maybe we’ll post one <laugh>
Laura Thomson (09:12):
Woman Up. It’s more than a podcast or a play on words for the woman who’s killing it, who’s showing
up as her confident badass
Lana Milner (09:20):
Self. And it’s also for the woman going through a hard time, a divorce grief transformation. However you
define or identify with woman, you’re welcome in the sisterhood.
Laura Thomson (09:30):
It’s an opportunity to change the narrative. The Sister Brand’s trademark Woman Up apparel is the OG
official merch check back often with new styles being released all the time.
Lana Milner (09:40):
So go ahead and grab your trademarked inclusive sized woman up merch only at thesisterbrand.com.
Gift yourself, gift your friends.
Laura Thomson (09:48):
That’s thesister brand.com.
Lana Milner (09:51):
All right, so how do you choose an influencer then? If you’re really concentrating on your niche and
what you’re selling, what should you be looking for when looking for that perfect influencer?
Laura Thomson (10:01):
You know what? I think that it’s not an easy thing and you shouldn’t take it lightly. That would be my
biggest advice is that don’t just jump to be like, oh, I’m going to do a brand club with you and oh, I’m
going to get you to do influencing because it has to be so aligned and your target audiences have to be
aligned. It can’t be someone that you just really, really

This transcript was exported on Feb 22, 2023 – view latest version here.

WU EP11 V1 FINAL (Completed 02/22/23)
Transcript by Rev.com

Page 6 of

Lana Milner (10:21):
Like. Yeah, and also I think another big mistake is that you see somebody else on something else that’s
big. Let’s say you have a local influencer who is just featured on the news or just featured by another big
influencer and you’re like, wow, if she’s getting traction, we should go with her. And I mean, there might
be a small percentage of times where that that’s beneficial, but for the most part, let them do their lane.
I think you really have to dig deep and see where what you’re selling your brand, what you’re selling is
aligned with somebody and how much they’re showing up authentically. Are they posting a lot of other
collabs too? That’s a big red flag right away because we see that a lot.
Laura Thomson (11:03):
There is nothing worse. Oh gosh. And we’ve known so many people that have invested tons of money
and time into influencer collabs, and you feel like you’ve made a connection with this person and you
feel like this is going to be amazing and they roll out and you have a great collab and two days later
they’ve got a collab with somebody else that trumps yours and you are dead in the water now
Lana Milner (11:27):
Or they’re very, very similar in product. So yeah, that right there is where the authenticity factor tends
to wane. And you need to make sure that’s in your contract. You need a contract
Laura Thomson (11:41):
Absolutely. And you need to make sure that that’s in there and that it says very clearly that in a similar
collab cannot be done in for within certain parameters
Lana Milner (11:51):
That you choose. And if you’re looking for a contract, you can easily get one on Google. It’s in, they’re
everywhere. Now go online, make sure you do get that in writing. It’s so important. And if your
influencer wants to give you a contract, that’s fine too, but just make sure you go through it with the
fine toothed comb.
Laura Thomson (12:09):
Yeah, and there are a lot of amazing influencers out there. There we’ve seen people that have really
done a number on, I mean, we’re living proof of this. Jillian Harris, she did it for us out of the kindness
of her heart. She posted our woman up and literally within our phones, Lana, do you remember that
moment? Ding, ding, ding, ding, ding. Order, order, order, order. And it was an unreal. I think we had
over 500 orders within 24 hours. And for us that was massive. And she is one of the ones that is very
true and authentic and what you see is what you get. But you can also tell that from having seen her do
this for years. So she’s one of the big ones. If you’re going to go big, it’s people that are like that. And as
long as it’s aligned with your niche.
Lana Milner (13:02):
Absolutely. Okay, so number one, how to choose an influencer. Look for somebody who is aligned with
your niche, knows what they’re doing, isn’t hawking something different every second day? And look for
that 5,000 to say 20,000 range for your following.
Laura Thomson (13:20):

This transcript was exported on Feb 22, 2023 – view latest version here.

WU EP11 V1 FINAL (Completed 02/22/23)
Transcript by Rev.com

Page 7 of
Dive into their followers, see who who’s following them, see what their reels reach is. The ratio
shouldn’t be insane for views to followers.
Lana Milner (13:31):
What do you think that ratio should look
Laura Thomson (13:32):
Like? What if somebody has 10,000 followers, they should be getting reel’s, views reaches of probably
2000 and up?
Lana Milner (13:42):
That would be reasonable
Laura Thomson (13:44):
Right now, right now we’re in the reels dive, so the metrics are all over the place, but right now when
reel’s views aren’t getting very good views, that would be a pretty decent ratio.
Lana Milner (13:55):
If I was going to consider a macro influencer, why should I or shouldn’t? I
Laura Thomson (14:00):
Again, just completely aligned with your brand. And if you’ve got the money to spend on a macro
influencer and somebody that just feels so right for your brand, do it. Absolutely do it. But have those
conversations. Ask the questions you are allowed to ask to see their analytics. I want to see what your
reach is. They don’t have to give you their back backend, but they can take screenshots of what their
views are from the backend of their Instagram.
Lana Milner (14:29):
And number one thing not to go off of when looking for a micro influencer or macro influencer
Laura Thomson (14:36):
Right away, the initial number, the follower number, the count
Lana Milner (14:40):
Every time,
Laura Thomson (14:41):
Because it’s not always correct.
Lana Milner (14:43):
Yeah, I thought we’d share the story of when we met Kaitlin Bristowe here last year. She of course was
internet famous. She’s from the Edmonton area, so from our area, she went on to dancing with the
Stars. She’s been on the Bachelorette so she’s got a huge following. And when we chatted with her, she
had mentioned that at one point in her career she was offered an mm-hmm <affirmative> absurd

This transcript was exported on Feb 22, 2023 – view latest version here.

WU EP11 V1 FINAL (Completed 02/22/23)
Transcript by Rev.com

Page 8 of
amount of money to rep. I believe it was like a tea company. And almost every single bachelor or
bachelorette that comes off that show is offered the same amount of money. And she was like, heck
yeah, I want to take that. But she had a friend named Penny who is in the industry, and she said, hell no,
Laura Thomson (15:27):
Don’t you dare do it. She said, it’s not inline with you, you do not rep Tea companies or whichever it
was. I can’t remember now, but she said, that is so off brand for you and it will be suicide. And so she
didn’t do it and she wanted to the best.
Lana Milner (15:40):
Yeah, she wanted you. She’s like, I’ll poop my pants for three days if it’s going to line my pockets with a
few grand. But good thing she didn’t because now she has collabs all over the place.
Laura Thomson (15:50):
And I think that’s such a valid point too, to the opposite side of what we’re talking about. We’re talking
about hiring the influencers, but what about the people that are wanting to get into influencing and
doing that? You know, see so many people, and a lot of them are micro influencers that are just taking
the collabs because it’s a paycheck, but you have to align yourself. If it’s not on your brand, it’s not going
to be seen as authentic.
Lana Milner (16:14):
Well, and I think for this particular company, I’m not going to name them, I know what their name is, but
I think it was a bit of a branding suicide for them because it became so overdone that you knew that
every single one of these so-called celebrities coming off these shows, were going to rep this brand and
talk about how great it was and how flat their stomach feels and all the things. I
Laura Thomson (16:36):
Was going to say, it’s because that’s all they got to drink on the show is tea.
Lana Milner (16:40):
Yeah. There’s no eating on the bachelorette <laugh> ever, ever. So it’s a really great I think case in point
for how being choosy is really important for both sides of the spectrum. If you’re also an influencer, be
choosy and don’t also, don’t choose an influencer that is just always pushing the next best thing. And
there
Laura Thomson (17:03):
Are also so many sites out there that you can go to. One for instance would be Social Blade. You can sign
up and you can type in someone’s Instagram handle and they basically give them a rating, they give
them an A plus, B minus, whatever it is, and they tell you their engagement rate, they tell you all their
metrics, and those are really helpful. So if you are looking to collab with somebody, those are the kind of
platforms that we would suggest checking out too.
Lana Milner (17:28):
And we use it quite often too, just when we’re investigating other companies that we’re working with.
So it is a really, really helpful tool. So I think the bottom line is that micro influencing is you’re going to

This transcript was exported on Feb 22, 2023 – view latest version here.

WU EP11 V1 FINAL (Completed 02/22/23)
Transcript by Rev.com

Page 9 of
serve more of a niche. You’re also going to have a lower cost for a higher roi, and that’s why you’re going
to see a lot more of it in the year to come.
Laura Thomson (17:51):
All right. That’s a wrap for today. Thank you very much for listening to The Woman Up podcast. We love
all things branding, all things social media, influencing. If you have any questions, hit us up, send us a
dm. We’re always here to listen. Thank you to Doug with Stories and Strategies, our podfather for
always putting this together and he’s making us sound good, right? Lana
Lana Milner (18:11):
Always makes us sound good. And thank you to you, our listener. And you know, we’re the sister brand
we love helping Women in Business Level Up. So give us a follow on social media and stay tuned for the
next show.